SID/STARs in vroute

Support for premium version users only.

Moderator: Michal Rok

User avatar
Michal Rok
Five Star Club
Posts: 2445
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:23 pm

SID/STARs in vroute

Post by Michal Rok » Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:08 am

Hi,

i've just finished a major update to vroute - adding extensive SID/STAR support. Regrettably due to real life commitments I have to hold short of writing a manual ;), but I hope you'll quickly find your way through the new features.

Here's what you should expect:
- upon selecting a route, you will be able to pick SID/STAR procedure, which will be taken into account in further processing of the route
- you can see waypoints of selected SID/STAR procedure in Waypoints tab
- exports such as Flight Progress Card or FS2004/FSX will include all these waypoints, enabling you to fly SID/STAR on non-capable FMCs
- SID/STAR checking is part of route validation process now

Comments welcome!


Michal
Attachments
vroute_sid.png
vroute_sid.png (373.49 KiB) Viewed 35921 times

lluisdc
Five Star Club
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:06 am

Re: SID/STARs in vroute

Post by lluisdc » Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:06 am

Hi Michal,

Nice implementation. However, keep in mind that the SID and STAR are chosen by the ATC basically according to: 1) the aiport normal procedures/configuration, 2) prevailing winds and 3) aircraft equipment. During the time I have devoted to control, a rather large number of pilots choose and file the SID or STAR according to the order of appearance in the FMC list, which not always is the right for the three reasons above mentioned. Let's see an example:

The normal configuration in Barcelona airport (LEBL) is west, using rwy 25L for departures and 25R for arrivals. Several usual routes use DALIN as SID fix and the great majority of aircraft are FMC equipped. Thus, the obligation of the ATC is to issue DALIN-2Q departure (RNAV) of course for rwy 25L. However, we usually find pilots filing for DALIN-2W departure (CNAV) for rwy 25L or not rarely for DALIN-3D for rwy 25R and sometimes for DALIN-2B for rwy 07L which is crazy. In all those cases their aircraft is FMC equipped and fully able to fly RNAV procedures. Some times pilots type the SID and/or STAR in the FP route, which is not correct, should not be done and which is overtyped by the radar when the ATC issues the right SID or STAR for the right runway. I mean, and using another example, for a route LEBL-LEAL the right way to insert the route in the flight plan would be "LOTOS UM985 VLC" but not "LOTOS2Q UM985 VLC2L" because, again for example, if the aircraft flies a B753 LOTOS-2Q would be correct but not if the aircraft is a DC93, or VLC-2L would not be used if the active rwy in LEAL is 28 instead of the usual rwy 10 because VLC-2N will be issued by the ATC.

Merry Christmas,

Lluís
Lluís del Cerro
VATSIM Senior Instructor
Catalonian Airlines
Image

User avatar
Michal Rok
Five Star Club
Posts: 2445
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:23 pm

Re: SID/STARs in vroute

Post by Michal Rok » Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:54 am

Dear Lluis,

Thanks for your comments. The new feature was not supposed to replace the thinking process in pilot's head :)

There are many places in the world where especially STARs are not runway dependent, a good example would be US transitions which often start as far as 300 miles from the airport and end before the active runway makes any diference. The good thing about using vroute is that if ATC changes your procedure in the clearance you can quickly reselect the SID in vroute and recalculate your fuel, re-download your FMC file and so on. Note that vroute will only show procedures that make sense for your route, for instance if you are arriving from west you will not see STARs for east arrivals. If the new feature only makes things worse in your particular situation you always have the option of selecting DCT and turning SID/STAR support off.

Note that most typical selection criteria will be just the active runway, and you can clearly see the connection between procedures and their runways in vroute.


Michal

lluisdc
Five Star Club
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:06 am

Re: SID/STARs in vroute

Post by lluisdc » Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:11 pm

Hi,

Again thank you for the explanation and also for advising on the "DCT" possibility.

Lluís
Lluís del Cerro
VATSIM Senior Instructor
Catalonian Airlines
Image

svienv
Premium User
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:26 pm

Re: SID/STARs in vroute

Post by svienv » Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:32 pm

Hello, and thanks for the new feature!

A possible bug? When trying to enter a new alternate airport, after entering the ICAO and clicking the button the airport does not get added to the list of alternates. Instead it triggers a brief refresh on the SID/STAR dropdown fields, without changing the data that's already selected there.
There was no such issue before the SID/STAR function got added.

I'll keep posting if I observe any other anomalities :)

Merry Xmas! :)
Svilen Vassilev
Vroute Premium user

danielfs9
Premium User
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:34 am

Re: SID/STARs in vroute

Post by danielfs9 » Sun Dec 25, 2011 11:46 am

Hi Michal,

I have just uploaded a route for Maddog and it looks like this:
maddog manager & setup (vroute).jpg
Maddog Manager & Setup with Vroute uploaded
maddog manager & setup (vroute).jpg (39.67 KiB) Viewed 35786 times
And normally it should look like this:
maddog.jpg
Maddog Manager & Set up regular route uploaded
maddog.jpg (43.5 KiB) Viewed 35786 times
Another thing ,an idea actually is this part where the SID/STAR are, i should be some button to hit, like accept and then you continue with the overview, fuel etc....because it happened some time that i am in the export page then i go back to overview and the sid and stars are back to default actually the first sid and star in the list.
I don't know if the idea was that the sid and star goes directly into the FMC (I tried PMDG; Digital Avionics)for now it doesn't enter, which i like actually,) i think it should go to Flight Simluator Files (so the default ATC guides you with you selected sid and star) only if the active rwy changes then i don't know how it goes..
I will go now and fly with Wilco Airbus so i'll see how it goes and i'll give my comments.
Otherwise I think the idea is cool, it gives you actually the possibility to do you planing with the SID/STAR or without (DCT all runway).
Great job..

Merry X-Mass!
Daniel

pietermottie
Premium User
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 3:17 pm

Re: SID/STARs in vroute

Post by pietermottie » Mon Dec 26, 2011 3:33 pm

Dear Michal,

nice thought of you to put in the SIDs/STARs.
One finding though ...and this going to be a long one to explain...

i use vroute + flightsim GPS + AIVLASOFT EFB

untill yesterday i was able to just load up a Vroute .pln file to my GPS and to my aivlasoft efb...both communication with eachother and both working normal.
NORMAL= whenever i starded on an airport i selected a SID on my EFB, and it would automaticly enter it into my GPS. AND would calculate and change the route from the LAST waypoint of the SID to the NEXT waypoint of the ROUTE.

NOW because of the implement of SIDs/STARs in voute. IT "LOCKS" the first waypoint of the SID or the last waypoint of the STAR,...which result in
SID...doing the departure and then the aircraft flies back to the first waypoint....
STAR...doing the arrival and the aircraft flying to the last waypoint which is usually the airport, without turning straight after the waypoint last arrival waypoint to the intercept point of the ILS for that arrival.

I hope you see what i mean... THIS also is tested on project magenta FMS,...where whenever you enter a star and sid into it ...it just still will follow the Vroute and it looks like starting point and end point are "LOCKED"
THIS WAS ALSO THE CASE IF I SELECTED DCT...and choose my SIDs/STARs myself. it just flew back to the airport because it saw it as the first waypoint regardless of entering others

VERY VERY dissapointed with this...as before no problems....so maybe it would be very good idea to remove this option and have it somwhere else...as a preference or so ????

hope to hear soon from you and maybe you have a solution
greets,
Pieter

User avatar
Michal Rok
Five Star Club
Posts: 2445
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:23 pm

Re: SID/STARs in vroute

Post by Michal Rok » Mon Dec 26, 2011 3:58 pm

I'd appreciate more detailed testing of this. There should be literally no difference between old vroute and how the new version behaves when you pick DCT.


Michal

User avatar
Michal Rok
Five Star Club
Posts: 2445
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:23 pm

Re: SID/STARs in vroute

Post by Michal Rok » Mon Dec 26, 2011 11:19 pm

svienv wrote:A possible bug? When trying to enter a new alternate airport, after entering the ICAO and clicking the button the airport does not get added to the list of alternates. Instead it triggers a brief refresh on the SID/STAR dropdown fields, without changing the data that's already selected there.
There was no such issue before the SID/STAR function got added.
Thanks. Indeed there was a bug. I fixed it now.


Michal

noels7
Premium User
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:41 pm

Re: SID/STARs in vroute

Post by noels7 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:21 am

Hi Michal

Season greetings.
I have been trying out the new Sids and Stars format in VRoute and think something is wrong:

Departure: YPAD Adelaide Intl (Australia) FL range: 100 - 600 Distance: 361.6 nm
Arrival: YMML Melbourne Intl (Australia)
Route: TBD6 AD TBD Y12 ARBEY H119 ML BOL.ARBEY1Z
Current weather: YPAD 270600Z 22018KT 9999 FEW040 BKN055 22/12 Q1015 NOSIG

YMML 270600Z 17015KT 9999 FEW037 19/09 Q1014 RMK HZ NOSIG
Terminal Area Forecast (TAF): TAF YMML 270442Z 2706/2812 17015G25KT 9999 FEW030 SCT040 BECMG 2710/2712 20008KT 9999 FEW020 BKN030 BECMG 2714/2716 20005KT 9999 DZ SCT015 BKN025 BECMG 2720/2722 18010KT 9999 SCT025 BECMG 2802/2804 18015G25KT CAVOK INTER 2714/2721 4000 DZ BKN010 RMK
Typically operated by: A320, A333, B734, B737, B738, B763.

I have flown that route many times (distance 361nm) but on Waypoint page the following is displayed :

YPAD YMMM S3456.7 E13831.8 TBD6 240 422
AD 116.40 S3456.8 E13831.5 103 50 422
TBD 116.60 S3515.2 E13928.0 Y12 103 139 372
HINDY S3610.0 E14205.1 Y12 102 41 233
DANKS S3625.9 E14252.1 Y12 101 79 192
APPLE S3655.7 E14423.2 Y12 119 22 113
ARBEY S3710.1 E14443.9 H119 158 18 91
BOL 362.00 S3727.7 E14447.9 H119 158 12 73
ML 114.10 S3739.6 E14450.5 338 30 61
ARBEY S3710.1 E14443.9 ARBEY1Z 158 10 31
BUNKY S3720.0 E14446.0 ARBEY1Z 157 8 21
BOL S3727.7 E14447.9 ARBEY1Z 158 13 13

YMML S3740.4 E14450.6

A total of 422 nm which basically 63nm to much because of double up of waypoints ARBEY and BOL.
Here is FSBuild flight plan (361nm) using TBD6 and ARBEY1Z

Flight Plan Generated by Fsbuild 2.4 YPAD-YMML
H,YPAD,YMML, ,
W,KNOBL,TBD6,30,-34.929722,138.559167,0.000000,0.000000,0,0,0,0
W,ROGGS,TBD6,30,-35.061667,138.906667,0.000000,0.000000,0,0,0,0
W,TBD,TBD6,30,-35.243333,139.510278,116.600000,0.000000,0,0,0,0
W,DANKS,,0,-36.431667,142.868500,0.000000,0.000000,0,0,0,0
W,ARBEY,,0,-37.168333,144.731667,0.000000,0.000000,0,0,0,0
W,BUNKY,ARBE1Z,30,-37.333333,144.766667,0.000000,0.000000,0,0,0,0
W,BOL,ARBE1Z,30,-37.462197,144.798208,362.000000,0.000000,0,0,0,0

There appears to be an anomaly somewhere in the VRoute display of waypoints.
Your advice/assistance would be appreciated when time permits.

Regards

noels7

User avatar
Michal Rok
Five Star Club
Posts: 2445
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:23 pm

Re: SID/STARs in vroute

Post by Michal Rok » Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:41 am

I think it would work right if your route did not contain the "H119 ML" segment which duplicates the STAR. There are many such routes in our database where people submitting them "simulated" SID/STAR procedures by manually entering their waypoints. Try editing the route to remove unnecessary segment.


Michał

JohnKnox
Premium User
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:12 am

Re: SID/STARs in vroute

Post by JohnKnox » Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:26 am

Thanks v much for the SIDs/STARS addition, excellent.

1. Does the info for those come from my Navigraph data or server based at vRoute end ? I'm guessing the latter in that it does not seem as complete, specifically New Zealand. I planned a flight NZCH-YBBN which showed STARS for YBBN but no SIDs leaving Christchurch.

2. Any possibility of editing the flight plan, like deleting duplicated, or 'unwanted' waypoints in vRoute before moving on to fuel planning or export ?
This would/might take care of the issues above. And after all thats no different in real terms than dealing with the discontinuities that the FMC throws up anyway in the normal course of events, but it'd be nice if we could do that stuff before import.

TIA
John

noels7
Premium User
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:41 pm

Re: SID/STARs in vroute

Post by noels7 » Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:40 am

Michal Rok wrote:I think it would work right if your route did not contain the "H119 ML" segment which duplicates the STAR. There are many such routes in our database where people submitting them "simulated" SID/STAR procedures by manually entering their waypoints. Try editing the route to remove unnecessary segment.


Michał

Thanks Michal for your response.
Will try your suggestion and see if that fixes the problem.

Regards

noels7

gabor
Premium User
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:47 am

Re: SID/STARs in vroute

Post by gabor » Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:54 am

Dear Michal,

for some reason the new feature of SID/STAR`s does not work for me, I got only "DCT" whatever airport I chose, with a text sayign: this feature is beta...Please report any issues...
I am a premium customer....
Any help?

Thank you and best regards,

gabor

JJJackson
Premium User
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:41 pm

Re: SID/STARs in vroute

Post by JJJackson » Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:55 am

Sorry for this silly question. I'm a lisenced VRoute Premium owner and would like to download this upadet, but I can't fnd where to do that.

Jack
The Swede in Spain

Post Reply